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Ask the expert – Peruvian Navy

Our resident expert Stephen Rigden, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Bob Andrews:

‘On the marriage certificate of my great grandfather (George Thomas Andrews, married at Plymouth on 28 April 1867) his father’s (Thomas Ebenezer Andrews, born on 8 June 1833) occupation is recorded as ‘Engineer Peruvian Navy’. I have been unable to discover any details to support this fact. I would like to know if Royal Navy personnel were seconded to the Peruvian Navy in the 19th century. I have found George’s service with the Royal Navy but not his father Thomas Ebenezer Andrews. I have also been unable to find a death date for Thomas Ebenezer, although I suspect it to be between 1867 and 1871. I would be most grateful for any help on this subject.’

Stephen says:

‘Hi Bob,

Thanks for writing in with a copy of your great grandfather’s marriage certificate. His father’s stated occupation of ‘Engineer, Peruvian Navy’ is remarkable but isn’t perhaps as improbable as it may at first appear. I wouldn’t claim to have any knowledge of the history of the Peruvian navy, although the British signed various treaties with Peru following its 1821 independence from Spain – for example, in 1837 and 1850, touching upon commerce and navigation.

British commercial interests in Peru included mining and bird guano (used for fertilizer), and I expect also the construction of railways later in the 19th century. Moreover, the British Royal Navy and merchant marine were everywhere – take a look at the dropdown list of ports at which British (and other) ships were calling in an admittedly more modern period (1890-1960) in the outward-bound passenger lists of record series BT27.

I expect that your great-great-grandfather Thomas was in, or attached to, the Peruvian Navy for a relatively short period of time, perhaps restricted to all or part of the Chincha Islands War of 1865-1868 during which Peru (and Chile) fought against the Spaniards. I imagine it would not have been at all uncommon for British mariners to take up posts in the Peruvian Navy at that time.

Note that, strictly speaking, this would be in breach of the Foreign Enlistment Act. This was enacted in 1819 to stem the flow of British men eager to support the cause of South American nations against the Spanish – as Richard Cobden observed in 1863, the British ‘generally sympathise with everybody’s rebels but our own’. The 1819 Act was probably not rigorously observed, therefore, it is likely that Thomas was not officially seconded, but volunteered for political or financial reasons to serve with the Peruvian Navy.

Official Foreign Office correspondence of the time may refer to British subjects joining up with the Peruvians, or of the activities of the Peruvian Navy circa 1867. If you have the opportunity, and are sufficiently interested, you could try browsing through the surviving files that The National Archives holds in Kew – for example, pieces within FO177, FO 178 and FO855. TNA’s Catalogue entry for Home Office piece HO45/7800 also refers to material which may be of relevance and interest. Such materials would almost certainly only supply you with background context, however, and not with any details specifically about Thomas, so you would need to manage your own expectations.

By the way, if George was indeed 21 years at marriage in 1867, as the marriage certificate records, then he would have been born circa 1845/46 and, therefore, it seems unlikely that his father Thomas was born in 1833 as per your email – that would have made Thomas only 12 or 13 years of age when he fathered him.

Finally, for those readers who are not aware, the General Register Office’s overseas BMDs are online on findmypast.co.uk and include returns of births, marriages and deaths despatched to England from British embassies, high commissions and consulates in South America, as from elsewhere overseas. If you search the deaths for last name Smith and region South America, for example, you will receive three and a half pages of search results.’

If you’d like to send your question to Stephen, please register or opt to receive newsletters in ‘my account’. Stephen only has time to answer a couple of queries each month but if yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!

Ask the expert – elusive Royal Navy ancestor

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Graham Browster:

‘My grandfather served in WWI – he was 28893 Dvr E Browster RFA and he won several medals which I have. While trying to trace his date of birth I have learnt that he served on HMS Queen Elizabeth and had been in the Royal Navy for several years.

I have not been able to trace him under the name we know him as but I know he was quite good at boxing and used the name ‘Gunboat’. Can you assist please?’

Paul says:

‘Dear Graham,

You’ve done better than I have in managing to dig up information about his Royal Navy service. I searched the Royal Navy ratings’ service records on The National Archives website but came up with a blank.

No service record appears to survive for his time with the RFA during WWI but he has two campaign medal index cards, one of which notes that he arrived in France on 22 July 1915 and was later awarded the Military Medal. The award was gazetted in the London Gazette of 16 August 1917. The card for his Military Medal notes that he served with B battery, 93rd Brigade.

I note that there was an American boxer by the name of Edward ‘Gunboat’ Smith who served with the US Navy but I’ve not found evidence that this man and your grandfather are one and the same person.’

If you’d like to send your question to our experts, please register or opt to receive newsletters in My Account. Unfortunately our experts only have time to answer a few queries each month. If yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!

Ask the expert – Fleet Air Arm

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Anthony Hood:

‘My father served in the Fleet Air Arm during WWII. How can I get a copy of his service record?’

Paul says:

‘The Fleet Air Arm is the air force of the Royal Navy and The National Archives website has some useful information.

To obtain a service record you’ll need to visit the Veterans UK website and follow the instructions. Note, however, that prior to 1972 all Royal Navy personnel were given their service record when they discharged and that the only information held on Royal Navy personnel who served prior to 1972 are their service details and a list of dates and ships/shore bases. Nevertheless, using this information it should be possible to piece together a fuller service history.’

If you’d like to send your question to our experts, please register or opt to receive newsletters in My Account. Unfortunately our experts only have time to answer a few queries each month. If yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!

Ask the Expert – Indian Navy

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Anthony Mathers:

‘I would like to know how to get information on the Indian Navy. On the 1881 census, my great-grandfather, Richard Moore, was a pensioner of the Late Indian Navy. His age was 45. In 1862, the year he got married, he was a seaman. In 1863, on his son’s birth certificate, Richard’s profession is listed as ‘soldier’. By 1868, he was a warehouse porter. He lost his hand in an accident at sea so he left the navy. He was born around 1839 in Birmingham, England. I would be so grateful for any help as it has always been a mystery.’

Paul says:

‘It’s possible that there is a surviving record for him in one of the ADM files at The National Archives. You can then visit TNA yourself or hire a researcher to have a look for you. See the Royal Navy pension records for ratings here

Failing this, it might also be worthwhile contacting the British Library to see if there are relevant papers held in the India Office collection. There are certainly soldiers’ records which survive and there may well be Naval records too.’

If you’d like to send your question to our experts, please register or opt to receive newsletters in My Account. Unfortunately our experts only have time to answer a few queries each month. If yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!

Ask the Expert – disappeared in the 1881 census

This month we also have an expert answer to the question of a disappearing relative from the 1881 census. Michael Sheppard asks:

“My grandfather was Sylvester Sheppard born 27 April 1857 in Ubley, Somerset. He enlisted in the Grenadier Guards in 1877 Service No.5924.stationed at Horse Guards until 1883 and transferred to the Reserve until 1889. I cannot find him on the 1881 census.

Do you have any idea on how to find this record? Would the army have had their own record of this census?

Stephen replies:

“Thanks for your question about Sylvester Sheppard. I’ve chosen it as I believe the answer may be of value to other researchers, even though the short answer is “No”.

Firstly, it’s worth summarising the situation with regard to each of the decennial censuses for England and Wales for 1841 to 1911 which are available, fully name-searchable, on findmypast.

1841 – no separate census returns for any of the armed forces
1851 – no separate census returns for any of the armed forces
1861 – separate census returns for Royal Navy At Sea (and also for British Ships In Port and Ships At Sea)
1871 – separate census returns for Royal Navy At Sea
1881 – separate census returns for Royal Navy At Sea
1891 – no separate census returns for any of the armed forces
1901 – separate census returns for Royal Navy At Sea
1911 – separate census returns for Overseas Military and Royal Navy At Sea

Although any individuals serving in the armed forces stationed within England and Wales (or Channel Islands or Isle of Man) should be enumerated at their barracks or garrison in all of the above, you will quickly see that there is tremendous scope for our ancestors to be “missing” from a census return due to service abroad (including, for that matter, Scotland or Ireland). This is particularly true for 1901, as that census, which was carried out on 31st March that year, took place during the Anglo-Boer War (1899-1902) – it is not unusual to see wives and children enumerated at home with a remark that the head of household is on overseas service.

One of these holes has been largely filled by the recent publication of the 1861 Worldwide Army Index on findmypast this month. This covers approximately 245,000 British (and of course Irish) soldiers who were stationed overseas in census year. As the 1861 census already covers the Royal Navy and at least a proportion of the merchant navy, the publication of the 1861 Worldwide Army Index goes some way towards completing the coverage of the population in 1861. To search this dataset, go to http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/military/indexes/1861-army-index.

Unfortunately, Michael, to return to your original question, if you cannot find your Guards ancestor in the 1881 census of England & Wales (and have also searched unsuccessfully the Scottish 1881 census on Scotland’s bonny People) normally this would imply that he was serving overseas and the censuses will remain forever silent as to his whereabouts. There was no separate “army census” of the type to which you allude. However, his “Chelsea Pensioner” army service record suggests that he was in fact “at home” from 1877 to 1889 inclusive. I would expect “at home” at that date to include Scotland and Ireland, so it may well be that Sylvester was elsewhere within the British Isles rather than in truly foreign parts.

Incidentally, another notable gap in the coverage of census-taking was the merchant navy and the small fishing fleets and solitary vessels which were offshore or at sea on census night. While sometimes these men and boys were recorded as if they were at home on census night, or included in returns of boats in harbours, they are too often missing from censuses (the 1861 census again being the only prominent exception to this rule).”

If you would like to have the chance to Ask the Expert, please email your query to casestudies@findmypast.co.uk

Please note that our experts cannot enter into personal correspondence and only a limited selection of queries will be answered per month. We try to select questions which reflect the most common enquiries.

The Royal Marine Medal Roll 1914-1920 is now on site

You can now find the complete World War I Campaign Medal Rolls for the Royal Marines on findmypast.co.uk.

The database contains the names of over 75,000 Royal Marine Officers, NCOs and other ranks, and provides a complete listing of all Royal Marines who served in WW1. Added to the transcripts of these records are service details for a large number of men, particularly those killed in action or died of wounds during WW1 and in many cases post-war deaths and WW2 deaths are noted.

The medals covered by the rolls are: the 1914 Star, the Clasp to the 1914 Star, the 1914-15 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.

Start searching for your Royal Marine ancestors today and have a look at our Royal Marine Medal Roll knowledge base page for fascinating, detailed information about these records.