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Ask the expert – military conundrum

Our resident expert Stephen Rigden, pictured below, answers your queries.

From David Griffiths-Parry:

‘My late father started his family history research a year before he passed away, and I am carrying his work forward.

His grandfather Francis David Parry was born in Liverpool, Lancashire on 19 April 1883 and died in Liverpool Lancashire in 1958. I have traced Francis David Parry’s family back to 1846. Prior to this date, they lived somewhere in Wales.

The surname is often recorded as ‘Perry’ and this may have been due to handwriting/dialect. Throughout his life he was addressed as ‘David’, but also ‘Francis’. I have searched the military records on findmypast.co.uk to find Francis David Parry, but to no avail.

My father claimed that Francis David Parry served in the Merchant Service in 1903. During WWI he served for 4.5 years and was in active service in France for 3.25 years. His army number was 17344. He was wounded in 1916 and at some stage was deafened by gas. As far as I know, he was not a prisoner of war. I am guessing he enlisted for WWI in the city of Liverpool.

If you can offer any advice I would be most grateful. I am aware that I can obtain records from The National Archives at Kew.’

Stephen says:

‘Dear David,

Thanks for your question.

Firstly, I looked up your great grandfather on the Medal Index Cards (record series WO372) available online at The National Archives’ ‘Discovery’ – this contains the record sets formerly accessible via its Documents Online pages. This gives some interesting information about Private 17344 Francis D Parry of the 2nd Btn, South Lancashire Regiment.

He was entitled to the usual British War and Victory Medals but also, as an early volunteer, to the 1915 Star. From his regimental number, he would have joined up in mid or late March 1915. He first served abroad, in France, on 18 December 1915, as part of a draft to replace losses in the 2nd Btn (which was a pre-war regular battalion then fighting with the 75th Brigade in the 25th Division of the Expeditionary Force). He was discharged on 8 June 1919 in class Z, which means that he was liable to recall if hostilities resumed before the formal peace was concluded.

At the time of the 1911 census, as I am sure you know, he seems to have been a dock labourer for the stevedores Coggins & Griffith, who were based at 29 Roberts Street, down by the Liverpool docks. The fact that he names a specific firm may suggest that he was a permanent employee rather than casual labour.

Earlier, in 1901, he is a 17-year-old coal carrier working for his mother Jane, who is described as a coal dealer, in Circus Street (very close to his 1911 address in Downe Street). It is not inconceivable that he had a career in the merchant navy at some date between 1901 and 1911. Unfortunately, this is a period not covered by the large collection of merchant navy records on findmypast.co.uk, digitised from sources at The National Archives, which is divided between a mid-Victorian era series (1835 to 1857) and a largely inter-war period (1918-1941).

We also have merchant marine crew lists 1861-1913 on findmypast.co.uk, but these, although extensive, are by no means complete. I checked them but there is no apparent reference to the correct Francis or David Parry or Perry.

There is no reference to your ancestor in the Maritime History Archive’s online database, which covers seamen aboard Newfoundland-registered vessels engaged in the Atlantic trade. I don’t believe there are any other large collections of digitised merchant seamen records for the 1900s online at present, although this could well change in coming years. This means that, for now, you may well have to take a yomp down to Kew, or engage a professional researcher there to examine the available paper records at The National Archives, for example, crew lists in record series BT99 and BT100. I cannot stress enough how speculative this would be in the absence of name indexes.

You could also take a look at an online information sheet 43 called ‘Tracing Seafaring Ancestors in the Merchant Navy’ to be found on the Merseyside Maritime Museum’s website, which may help by way of background.

As matters stand at present, therefore, there appear to be no immediate ways forward for your research into Francis David Parry’s possible career in the merchant navy between the 1901 and 1911 census years – sorry!’

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Ask the expert – British Army ancestor

Our resident expert Stephen Rigden, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Eric Brown:

‘Where do I start?

My paternal grandmother was born in Richmond Barracks, Dublin. She married in Northampton and her father is shown on her marriage licence is Sergeant Major. I would like to find out more about her birth and about her father’s army career and history.

My question is: why was she in Northampton? The address shown on her marriage licence is Lawrence St, Northampton, which is opposite the barracks. Can I guess that her father was based in Northampton and his daughter came over with him?

At the time of her birth, would her father have been in the English army or would there have been an Irish Regiment? Are there records at Kew?

The details are:

Father: William Lynn

Daughter: Marion Josephine Lynn, born in 1857 at Richmond Barracks, Dublin. She married Theophilus Brown on 6 December 1877 in Northampton, aged 20.

Thank you for your help.’

Stephen says:

‘Dear Eric

Thanks for your question regarding your great grandfather, William Lynn, who was a Sergeant Major in an unknown regiment in the British Army and alive in 1877.

I have chosen this question this month as it illustrates some of the techniques which we use when trying to resolve problematic points on our family trees. Firstly, I should say that this, like many problems, has no immediate or easy answer – there is no single database in which you can be absolutely sure to find a named individual, and even the most comprehensive countrywide datasets such as the birth, marriage and death indexes, or the decennial censuses, contain many omissions and errors.

This being the case, it is common to approach problems by identifying a range of potential candidates and then progressing by a process of elimination towards a correct answer. Of course, the more distinctive the combination of details available in your starter information, the more conclusive this process is likely to be. Even a rare name, however, won’t guarantee you a result.

In this case, we have a man with a reasonably good combination of names and a precise rank in the army, who was known to have been alive at a particular date. We can also infer that, as his daughter was born in 1857, he was born at least 16 years earlier than that, i.e., before 1841. When we begin to look at online record sets, we are searching for individuals who meet all these criteria (bearing in mind, of course, that in the case of his army career, he would have held a lower rank in earlier years).

The record sets to begin with in this instance are the so-called ‘Chelsea Pensioner‘ records – the pre-WWI British Army service records, good for out-pensioners as well as the very small number of red-coated in-pensioners at the Royal Hospital Chelsea – and the census returns. We must remember that the army service records are for men discharged from the army and, therefore, exclude those who were killed or died in service; and that, with some exceptions, the censuses are primarily a record of who was sleeping where on census night and, therefore, frequently exclude men at sea (even if just out on a fishing boat) or serving overseas with the army or navy. Nevertheless, when we start to consult and compare these records, only one strong candidate emerges for William Lynn.

Firstly, there is only one surviving service record for a Sergeant Major named William Lynn, and none for NCOs of higher rank (and at that date it would be highly unlikely that he would have risen to become a commissioned officer beyond the scope of the Chelsea Pensioner records). The candidate William Lynn was a Sergeant Major in the 1st Btn and then, upon its creation in 1855, the 3rd Btn of the 60th or King’s Royal Rifle Corps. Note that earlier this month findmypast.co.uk published complementary series of British Army service records from the 19th and very early 20th centuries – these include those for the Imperial Yeomanry who served in the 2nd Anglo-Boer War, for example, the records from Royal Kilmainham Hospital in Ireland, and the fascinating volumes relating to the foreign regiments, comprising mostly German (but also Hungarian, Scandinavian etc) soldiers, who fought with the British in the Napoleonic Wars.

Moreover, what is clearly the same man can be found in the census returns for 1851 (when he is a Sergeant), 1871 (by which time he is a Sergeant Major), 1881 and 1891. The 1861 Worldwide Army Index places him in Wellington (in southern India) and Madras in that census year, explaining his absence from that year’s census.

When one pieces together this man’s life and career, one can see that he married twice (firstly to Hannah, between 1840 and 1850, who died 29 May 1862 in Rangoon, Burma; and then secondly to Mary Ann, at some date between 1862 and 1871, who died between 1881 and 1891); that he had at least four children, born between 1848 and 1856 in Tilbury Fort, Chatham and Co Kildare; and that he joined the militia – specifically 2nd Edmonton Royal Rifle Regiment of Militia, based in South Mimms – on leaving the regulars.

Note that these locations and the army service record mostly match the recorded postings of the 60th Royal Rifles, which can be found in various publications such as The King’s Royal Rifle Corps Chronicle (pub 1905). Chatham was the depot for the 1st Btn of the Regiment throughout the early 1850s. The 3rd Btn was in Curragh (Co Kildare) in 1856 and in Dublin in 1855 and again from later in 1856 to 1857 – it then moved overseas and we can plot the movements of Sergeant Major Lynn (and presumably his first wife and children) as follows – 1857: Madras, Bangalore, 1858: Mysore, Bellary, 1860: Jackatalla, 1862: Thayetmyo, Toungoo, 1863: Rangoon, 1865: Madras.

This man would appear to have been the only Sergeant Major William Lynn in the British Army in the mid/late 19th century. We do not have sufficient information to definitively clinch the ID; however, the balance of probability leans persuasively towards this man being your great-grandfather. We discussed this offline, and you mentioned that your grandmother had a son of the same name, Godfrey, as one of the children of William Lynn. Godfrey is a fairly unusual name, good to have in any family tree, and to my mind this additional detail adds further weight to the balance of probability. If one and the same family is involved, then your grandmother named her son Godfrey after an older brother.

To try to secure proof, it would be useful to obtain copy documents, such as the birth certificates of William Lynn’s sons Thomas and Joseph, and also of course the 1857 Dublin birth or baptism of your grandmother Marion (this event doesn’t appear in the army births on findmypast.co.uk and, as civil registration in Ireland did not commence till 1864, your only chance would appear to be the event having been registered locally as a baptism).

If the link can be proven, the British Army pension record gives the precise parish of birth of William Lynn as Bristol St Philip, so you should then be able to advance your research back in time from there.

Good luck, and please let us know if you make a breakthrough!’

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Ask the expert – elusive Royal Navy ancestor

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Graham Browster:

‘My grandfather served in WWI – he was 28893 Dvr E Browster RFA and he won several medals which I have. While trying to trace his date of birth I have learnt that he served on HMS Queen Elizabeth and had been in the Royal Navy for several years.

I have not been able to trace him under the name we know him as but I know he was quite good at boxing and used the name ‘Gunboat’. Can you assist please?’

Paul says:

‘Dear Graham,

You’ve done better than I have in managing to dig up information about his Royal Navy service. I searched the Royal Navy ratings’ service records on The National Archives website but came up with a blank.

No service record appears to survive for his time with the RFA during WWI but he has two campaign medal index cards, one of which notes that he arrived in France on 22 July 1915 and was later awarded the Military Medal. The award was gazetted in the London Gazette of 16 August 1917. The card for his Military Medal notes that he served with B battery, 93rd Brigade.

I note that there was an American boxer by the name of Edward ‘Gunboat’ Smith who served with the US Navy but I’ve not found evidence that this man and your grandfather are one and the same person.’

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Ask the expert – Fleet Air Arm

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Anthony Hood:

‘My father served in the Fleet Air Arm during WWII. How can I get a copy of his service record?’

Paul says:

‘The Fleet Air Arm is the air force of the Royal Navy and The National Archives website has some useful information.

To obtain a service record you’ll need to visit the Veterans UK website and follow the instructions. Note, however, that prior to 1972 all Royal Navy personnel were given their service record when they discharged and that the only information held on Royal Navy personnel who served prior to 1972 are their service details and a list of dates and ships/shore bases. Nevertheless, using this information it should be possible to piece together a fuller service history.’

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Ask the expert – missing service number

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Derek Franklin:

‘I am trying to trace Arthur Hollingsworth’s army record but I have no service number. He was born in Bermondsey on 2 February 1898 and is believed to have served in WWI under General Allenby, possibly in the artillery. Arthur’s UK address was 165 Lynton Road, Bermondsey. He is a long lost uncle. I would be most grateful for your help.’

Paul says:

‘Dear Derek,

The National Archives lists 17 men with medal index cards who served during WWI and so it’s going to be a tough call for you to narrow down those men to your ancestor, particularly if you don’t know the regiment he served with.

Two of these men, however, are listed as having served with the Royal Artillery: one with the Field Artillery and one with the Garrison Artillery. The former arrived in France in 1915 and so we can rule him out because your relative would have been too young to serve overseas at that time. So the other man, 151141, would be a possibility. From my own research I can advise you that this number would have been issued towards the end of March or early April 1917 and so this certainly fits the scenario of a young 19 year-old soldier being called up to the colours.

General Allenby led the Egyptian Expeditionary Force in the conquest of Palestine and Syria in 1917 and 1918 but this doesn’t help you to narrow down the search a great deal and unfortunately there does not appear to be a surviving service record for our 151141 Gnr Hollingsworth.’

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Ask the expert – missing father

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Pauline Woodcock:

‘I am trying to trace information regarding my father’s WWI army service. He was Gerard Patrick Phillips, born on 17 March 1898 in Birkenhead. I have been through all the online WWI records available but cannot find a record. I haven’t got a regiment for him apart from the fact that it was a Cheshire regiment. His job was to carry ammunition to the front. He was gassed two days before amnesty and was reported missing. My grandmother saw him on a cinema news reel in a convent, possibly in Belgium. I would be grateful if you could give me any direction in where to try searching.’

Paul says:

‘Hello Pauline.

I couldn’t find him when I looked through medal index cards on The National Archives’ site. If he was born in 1898, however, he wouldn’t have been eligible for overseas service until 17 March 1917 at which point conscription had already been in force for a year. Nevertheless, if he served overseas he would have received medals and, therefore, a medal index card should survive.

It’s a possibility, I suppose, that he enlisted under an assumed name and if that is the case it will be difficult to track him down. I found one G P Phillips who served with the 2nd County of London Yeomanry and later the RAF, but that’s the only man with the same initials as your father.’

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Ask the expert – Chelsea Pensioner ancestor

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Roslyn Berthelsen in Queensland, Australia:

‘I have been trying to find out what campaigns my grandfather fought in during WWI and the Boer War etc. His name is George Jull and he was born on 24 April 1874 in Kent, England. He married my grandmother Lizzie Kemp and she was born on 15 September 1882 in Kent. They migrated with their family to Australia in about 1920. I know my cousin’s son has my grandfather’s war medals but he hasn’t been very co-operative in letting me know what campaign’s he fought in and now my cousin has died I don’t have his son’s address to contact him again.

George’s father’s name was Alfred Jull, born in 1846, and his mother’s name was Amelia Eve born 1850.’

Paul says:

‘I couldn’t find a medal index card for George Jull for WWI. Two men are listed: George E Jull and George Norman Jull, neither of whom are your man. Two possibilities here then: either he enlisted under an assumed name or he enlisted under his own name but did not serve overseas. The medal index cards only record men who received medals or a silver war badge and if he had no overseas service he wouldn’t have received a medal.

The good news is that his pre-WWI papers do survive in the Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records (WO97) on findmypast.co.uk. A potted history reads as follows:

• Attested with King’s Royal Rifle Corps for seven years with the colours and five years on the reserve at Canterbury on 10 February 1892 aged 18 years
• At the time of his attestation he was working as a labourer and was also serving (part time) with the Thames Medway Division Submarine Miners (Royal Engineers)
• He gave his place of birth as Boughton near Faversham
• He was 5 feet 4 ¼ inches tall with a fresh complexion, hazel eyes and dark brown hair. He had a mole on his left shoulder and a tattooed dot on his left forearm
• He had a somewhat chequered military career (which you can read all about on the four pages of his service record) but he spent time overseas in Gibraltar, Malta, South Africa and Mauritius and in fact spent over 11 years serving with the colours and just 10 months on the reserve. It was while he was on the reserve that he married Lizzie Kemp in 1903
• He served during the Boer War and was awarded the Queen’s South Africa Medal with clasps Belfast and Laing’s Nek and the King’s South Africa Medal with clasps 1901 and 1902
• He achieved a number of educational certificates and qualifications during his time in the British Army

The King’s Royal Rifle Corps was a well-respected infantry regiment and George served with the 3rd, 2nd and 1st Battalions. I hope this is helpful.’

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Ask the expert – WWI ancestor?

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Alan Theobald:

‘I have been trying to find any records of my paternal grandfather’s army service for several years, without success, and would be grateful for any advice you can offer.

He was James Theobald, born in 1870, died in 1950/1 in Romford, Essex. He lived all his life within a few miles of Romford except for military service. He was unlikely to have been a commissioned officer. This is all I know about him:

• Found on the 1891 census as a civilian
• Not found on the 1901 census, which could suggest that he was overseas at the time
• Described on the 1911 census and on the 1909 birth certificate of one of his sons as an army pensioner. I know that he was partially paralysed as a result of wounds and/or sunstroke
• Not found in Chelsea Pensioners records, which could suggest that he was not a British Army pensioner. Who else would have paid him an army pension?
• Not found in any 2nd Boer War records. Not found by a researcher in WO97
• Reputed to have described the sun as the Bengal blanket
• Granted the lease of a smallholding in Crow Lane, Romford in around 1930, until his death, under a Royal British Legion scheme for disabled ex-servicemen. RBL say that they have no archive material

Hope you can help.’

Paul says:

‘Hello Alan.

Admittedly he’s a bit of a mystery and you’re really struggling without a regiment.

The survival rate of documents in WO97 for men discharged to pension between 1883 and 1913 is very good; in fact Michael and Christopher Watts, in their book My Ancestor was in the British Army (Society of Genealogists 2009) describe finding a document as ‘a near certainty’.

The fact that nothing appears to survive for your grandfather could suggest a) that he was discharged overseas (the survival rate for these men’s papers is low) or b) that he subsequently served during WWI. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that he could have joined up again in 1914, his papers being moved out of what is now WO97 and into WO363 where they were subsequently destroyed during bombing in WWII.

I’m tempted towards WWI because you mention the Royal British Legion, an organisation formed after WWI to look after WWI veterans and their families. As far as I’m aware they did not concern themselves with veterans of previous conflicts, although it would be worth verifying this with RBL.’

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Ask the expert – absent service record

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Mary Gregg:

‘My father served in the Kings Royal Rifle Corps in WWI. His name and number was Pte George Brunt 44919 – he later joined the 6th London regt. number 348277. I have his card but it gives no details of his actual service and I cannot trace his service records anywhere. I do know he served in France and was mentioned in two despatches as I saw the typed out pages which said he had captured a German trench. I also saw one that said he had captured some Germans single-handedly but these were lost by my family in the move to Australia. I would be most grateful for any information you can discover.’

Paul says:

‘Hello Mary. Thanks for writing to me.

The numbers date to quite late on in the war. 44919 for the King’s Royal Rifle Corps dates to March 1918 (almost certainly the first half of the month) and 348277 for the 6th London Regiment is a month or two after that. It’s possible that he was transferred from the KRRC to the 6th London Regiment under Army Order 204/1916, which dealt with compulsory transfers.

In the absence of a service record (which could have been destroyed as a result of enemy bombing during WWII) you could at least obtain a copy of the 6th London Regiment’s war diary from April 1918. This would give you an idea of what the battalion was up to at this time. The diaries are held at The National Archives in Kew but you could ask a researcher to obtain copies for you. As far as I know, this particular war diary is not available via documents online at TNA, although many are.’

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Ask the expert – Indian mysteries

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Jean Field in Australia:

‘Can you help? My ancestor Alexandra Sophia Letitia Elizabeth was born in Bombay, India on 11 May 1889. Her father was Alexander Clarkson, Sergeant Instructor G.I.P Railways Igalpura. Alexander was born in England in 1860 and married Letitia Stewart in 1880, also in India. I have his service records from your site.

I just wonder if you have any information as to what Alexander would have been doing on the railways as he served in the British Army?

He returned to England without his wife and child. Any idea what happened to them? This wife and child were not known to the family. He went on to have another family in Manchester! Any help or direction would be most appreciated.

I also wondered if you can help with regard to Timothy Finucane, born in Mallow, Cork, Ireland in 1833. He had a long army service, although I am unable to find his service records. I have him listed in a private army (aged 18yrs) in 1855 and by 1861 he was at Hythe School of Musketry. He later became an Instructor of musketry and served in the 107 Regiment of Foot (2387) in India.

Any idea where I could find his service records? In 1855 he was listed in a private army – would that have anything to do with the East India Trading Company? Many thanks for your advice.’

Paul says:

‘I’m going to try and answer both your queries in one.

GIP Railways it Great Indian Peninsular Railway and Igatpuri is now a city but was then a smaller hill station in what is today the Indian state of Maharashtra.

Alexander Clarkson’s marriage details, noted on his service record, state that he was a sergeant instructor with the East Yorkshire Regt; key service details below.

• 29 April 1880 – Attests with 11th Brigade at Fleetwood for six years with the colours and six on the reserve. Is already a serving member of 1st Royal Lancashire Militia, number 3165
• 11 March 1882 – 10 May 1890 – serving in India
• 13 November 1882 – Transferred to 1st Bn King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regt
• 21 March 1885 – Extends service to complete 10 years with the colours
• 2 December 1885 – Transferred to Unattached List with the rank of sergeant instructor
• 31 January 1886 – Transferred to 2nd East Yorkshire Regt (number 2076)
• 27 February 1888 – Marries Letitia Stewart at St Thomas’s Cathedral, Bombay
• 28 April 1892 – Transferred to Section D Army Reserve
• 27 April 1896 – Discharged

I couldn’t see anything on his service record that mentioned the GIP Railway and apart from the period when he was on Section D Army Reserve, he was a full-time soldier engaged in full-time soldierly duties. Note, however, that the Unattached List was comprised of NCOs from British Regiments who wished to stay in India. Later they would become supernumerary men attached to British Regiments before promotion to warrant officer rank or sub-conductor and then conductor (and then further promotions after that). Your man does not appear to have attained those ranks but he did have two good conduct badges which would have appeared as two chevrons attached to his tunic on his lower left arm.

I have been unable to find out what happened to Letitia and Alexandra when Alexander left India. Is it possible that they died in India before he returned to the UK?

On your other relative, looking through documents in WO12 (Pay books and muster rolls) and WO25 (description books) at The National Archives should help you in the absence of a service record. If Australia is a little too far for you to travel from, you could engage a researcher to do the work for you. The 107th Regiment of Foot was an Indian raised regiment – The Bengal Light Infantry – which was originally formed by the Honourable East India Company in 1854 as the 3rd Bengal (European) Light Infantry. After the Indian Mutiny it was, along with all of the other European units of the Company, moved into the British Army. This happened in 1862 when it was ranked 107th Regiment of Foot. In 1881 it became the 2nd line battalion of the Royal Sussex Regiment.’

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