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Ask the expert – elusive date of death

Our resident expert Stephen Rigden, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Adrian Shepard:

‘I wonder if you can help me with a question regarding finding the date of death of my great-great-great-grandfather?

My great-great-great-grandfather was Benjamin Shepard from Lymington (born in 1782). His name appears in local parish records for the birth of his children with wife Mary Ann Green (born in 1784 and died in 1856).

By the time of the first census in 1841, and also in 1851, however, he doesn’t seem to be listed again with his wife and children. I can’t find a record of his death locally in Lymington but his name and profession appear on several marriage certificates for his children.

Does that mean he was alive at the time of the children’s weddings in 1853 and 1859? Would it normally say ‘deceased’ on the marriage certificate? Many thanks for any help/advice you can give.’

Stephen says:

‘Dear Adrian,

Thanks for your question.

The answer to your question is that theoretically a marriage certificate should record if the father of a bride or groom is deceased. If the 1853 and 1859 marriage certificates in your possession are silent on this point, therefore, normally one would infer that the father was indeed still alive at those dates, unless there is evidence to the contrary.

No proof was required by the registrar, however, so the information recorded in the marriage register (and on the marriage certificate produced from it) will only ever be as good as the knowledge of the informant providing it (usually the bride or groom, as applicable). For example, in cases of family estrangement, a person getting married may not know whether his or her father is deceased and may, therefore, state that he is alive when he is not (or, conversely, that he is dead when he is not). You should, therefore, proceed tentatively upon the basis that the father Benjamin was alive in 1859 but remain alive to the possibility of him having died by that date.

If you have not done so already, you should also obtain a copy of the death certificate of his spouse Mary Ann from 1856. This should describe her as either the wife, or the widow, of Benjamin. If it states “widow”, then one would assume that he was in fact dead by 1856. If it states “wife”, however, then this could add extra weight to Benjamin being alive at that date – and of course if he was the informant at her death, that would be conclusive! Should he not have been the informant, the same reservations would apply as for the marriage certificates and the evidence is only as good as the state of knowledge of the informant at death.

I am sure that, with a last name such as Shepard, you will already have thought of searching under name variants. If not, you should definitely extend your search using the more common spellings of the last name: on findmypast.co.uk, just tick the ‘include variants’ box when doing a death search.

Having said that, there is a death for a Benjamin Shepard in Lymington registration district for the December quarter of 1853 and another in Southampton in the September quarter of 1863. Unfortunately, at this date the original death indexes that the General Register Office compiled do not give age at death (this was not introduced until March quarter 1866), although the actual death register and a death certificate issued from it will give age, and of course these entries may relate to individuals of completely different age.

Good luck with your research!’

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Ask the Expert – missing birth

Our resident expert Stephen Rigden, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Maureen Probert:

‘I have been trying to obtain a copy of my great-grandmother Annie Lyons’ birth certificate. She married George Carter on 23 February 1884 in Bolton Registry office and she died in Bolton in 1905. I have a copy of the marriage certificate and her death certificate but I can’t find out where she was born. One census record says Accrington, another says Bolton. Annie was born around 1863 – I have checked the birth records but I cannot find her birth. Her father must not have registered her birth – his name was Thomas Lyons and I can’t find him either. I just can’t understand why her family don’t seem to exist.’

Stephen says:

‘When a question like this is asked, two thoughts immediately occur to me: firstly, the possibility of birth outside England and, secondly, birth under a different surname.

A quick look at census returns from 1871 to 1901 for Accrington (included in Haslingden registration district), for Bolton district, and more generally for Lancashire county shows that a significant number of the families named Lyons are from Ireland. For example, in the 1871 census, there are 350 persons named Lyons resident in Lancashire with Ireland as place of birth.

This total includes a married Thomas aged 35, born circa 1835/36 in Ireland and old enough to be Annie’s father (although there are no children co-resident with him at the address he is visiting in Halliwell township in Bolton). Unfortunately, very few of these census returns are more specific about place within Ireland, which makes it difficult to take research back across the Irish Sea, although if you track them forward through later censuses you may find out more exact information.

For this first possibility to be true, the information in the 1891 and 1901 censuses (to the effect that Annie was born in Accrington or Bolton) must of course be untrue. It is not unusual for census birth place information to be incorrect – it was simply volunteered by the householders without any evidence being provided or checks being made, and there is plenty of scope for error. This leads me to the second possibility, which assumes that Annie was indeed born in Lancashire.

The second possibility I mentioned takes into account such factors as the high levels of parental deprivation (i.e., death of one or both parents of a child), remarriage of the widowed survivor of a married couple, illegitimacy and informal fostering (“adoption”) patterns. All these complicate family structure, perhaps especially in urban and industrial areas. In other words, even though Annie named her father at the date of her marriage as Thomas Lyons, this may not have been correct – Lyons may have been a step-father, for instance, or a foster parent, and Annie herself born and registered under a different surname.

This may be unlikely; however, it is not impossible that both scenarios – birth outside England and birth under a different surname – are true.

To investigate the above possibilities thoroughly will take time and patience and, very probably, the reconstruction of partial family trees for each candidate, Thomas Lyons, for example, so that by a process of elimination you close in on the truth. It could also happen that you persevere with such searches and still get no closer to finding out the answer. Unfortunately, not all family history problems are soluble and many family historians are left with brick walls which no amount of research seems able to overcome.

Good luck with your research and please let us know how you get on.’

If you’d like to send your question to our experts, please register or opt to receive newsletters in My Account. Unfortunately our experts only have time to answer a few queries each month. If yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!

Ask the Expert – the first wife

Our expert Stephen Rigden, pictured above, answers your questions.

From Sandra Lockwood in Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia:

‘My grandmother’s father had two wives – the first is the one we cannot find. Her name was Elizabeth Hunt, born around 1861 – where we are not sure, but we were told it could have been Wilton, Wiltshire. Elizabeth had two sons to Joseph Manning, my great grandfather; we have the two boys’ birth certificates. The first boy was born Joseph Thomas Manning on 4 October 1881 at 10 Helmsley Street, Hackney, to Joseph and Elizabeth Manning, nee Hunt.

The second boy was born William Manning on 23 February 1885 in Alderbury at the Malt House Cottage Salisbury. His mother was Elizabeth Manning, nee Hunt. We know she existed but we cannot find a birth, marriage or death certificate for her – we know Joseph married Elizabeth Freak in 1889 and my grandmother was born 1890. I have been searching for over 12 months – can you help me?’

Steve says:

‘This is an interesting question. Assuming that you are absolutely certain that Elizabeth Hunt and Elizabeth Freak are definitely two different women, I think the most likely explanation for your predicament is that Joseph Manning and Elizabeth Hunt were never legally married.

Of course, this is not to say that they did not live as man and wife for a number of years, and may have presented themselves as married (the births of their children are certainly registered as if the parents were married). If you check the 1889 marriage certificate of Joseph to Elizabeth Freak, you may find that he is described as a bachelor rather than a widower; if you have not obtained a copy already, you should do so.

If they were not married, however, this gives rise to two other possibilities. Firstly, if Elizabeth, nee Hunt, did indeed die before 1889, her death may have been registered under Hunt not Manning. Secondly, perhaps Elizabeth did not die and the couple simply separated, with the sons Joseph and William staying with their father and their mother going her own way (and perhaps marrying another man as Elizabeth Hunt).

Unfortunately, while these possible explanations are worth considering, they do not make your job any easier, as of course Elizabeth Hunt is a very common combination of names. You would also need to bear in mind at least two geographically distinct areas – Greater London and Wiltshire – and possibly all stops in between and elsewhere.

You mention that Elizabeth Hunt may have been from Wilton, Wiltshire. As you may have noticed, on the April 1881 census there is a domestic servant of her name, aged 20 (born circa 1860/61) and born in Wilton, residing at 13 George Street, St Pancras, London. This could conceivably be your Elizabeth Hunt, unmarried and three months pregnant with Joseph Thomas. There is, however, no way of telling from this document in isolation.

Not all problems in family history are soluble. On all lines of all our family trees, sooner or later we come across a brick wall we cannot break down. Of course we all hope that the brick wall is reached later rather than sooner but sometimes we have to have the wisdom to accept that we can go no further. You may not be at that point in your research yet but I worry that there appears to be no straightforward way of advancing your research on this line.

Perhaps some of the family historians on findmypast.co.uk might have some ideas for you?’

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Ask the Expert – the mystery of Reginald

Our expert Stephen Rigden, pictured right, answers your questions.

From Ray Derricott: ‘My late father-in-law was born on 5 August 1907 in Islington. His mother was a domestic servant serving in a house in Islington. The father is not named on the birth certificate. His mother Florence Grace Edwin does not appear on the 1911 census and neither does my father-in law, Reginald Frederick Edwin. I have tried to find about his early life but to no avail.

I know he sailed to Canada in 1929 and returned in 1931. I have his TA military record and his marriage and death certificates. But what happened to him between 1907 and 1929? I would appreciate your help.’

Steve says: ‘In my experience, the vast majority of individuals resident in the areas covered by the 1911 census are findable. In this case, the solution is to consider the background and circumstances: a domestic servant would be unlikely to be able to care for her illegitimate child while remaining in service. Therefore, she would need to find a carer for her child. Moreover, the details of servants resident in their employers’ households are perhaps less likely to be recorded accurately and in full detail: the household form would have been filled in not by them but by their employer.

In this instance, therefore, I searched the 1911 census for a Florence living in the district of the birth and found one candidate: a Florence Edwin living as a general servant with a family named Hopkins at 137 Petherton Road, Highbury, aged 32, single and born in Huntingdon. Checking the birth index, there is a Florence Grace Edwin born in June quarter 1878 in Huntingdon registration district, which lends further support to this being the correct individual. I then searched for her young child living elsewhere and found a Reggie Edwin, aged 3, born in Highbury and boarding at 4 Victoria Terrace, Huntingdon with a family named Marriott.

I am confident that these two individuals are the ones you seek, even though they are not residing in the same household and their names are not given in full. In answer to your question, therefore, I suspect that Reginald spent his early years not in north London but in rural Huntingdon, where his mother was born and doubtless had family and friends. However, it is unlikely to prove possible to find out much more information about his formative years, although doubtless the 1921 census, due to be released in 2022, will place him somewhere in the country.’

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Ask the Expert – Bournemouth Blues

Our expert Stephen Rigden answers your questions:

After receiving a copy of my great-grandmother’s death certificate I thought it would be an easy thing to find her burial place so that I can visit from Australia next year. However, I have come up against a problem I have no idea how to tackle – I am unfamiliar with the areas around Bournemouth and with the changes to Hampshire and Dorset boundaries so do not know where to begin.

She died in Winton, Hampshire in 1903 from the effects of TB at aged 32 – her name was Ellen Dean (nee Boyt), wife of Charles. I have made enquiries with libraries but there is no record of her burial in the Bournemouth area and I am at a loss to know where to try – surely there must be a register which would record all burials for the County? Any advice would be gratefully received.’ Kris

Steve says:”Unfortunately, no! There are no such things as countywide burial registers in England and Wales.

Registration of deaths occurs locally at district register offices, with records then being collated centrally into a nationwide index. It is true that in civil registration there is an ongoing move towards unitary authorities sited at county level: for example, Kent County Council has a single countywide Registration Services portal. However, this does not apply to burials and cremations.

Unlike deaths, burials have never been regarded by the state as a vital event requiring systematic registration of date and place. Therefore, once a death has been registered, and assuming certain regulations are followed, burial can take place in a cemetery (or other approved location) of one’s choice.

Back in 1903, therefore, your late great grandmother’s death was registered in Christchurch registration district, which covered both Winton and Bournemouth. This is the only guide to place of burial that you have: most burials take place close to the locality of residence and death where these are the same. However, it is not hard to imagine situations where these general guidelines are broken. For example, if a person died far from their usual place of abode (for instance, while on holiday, or travelling), they may have been buried not near the place of death but back in their home district. Similarly, it is not unusual for a person who left their home town to be buried back there, especially if all other family remained in that location. Of course, neither of these scenarios may apply in your case, but do check on the death certificate for any addresses given for the deceased and/or the informant.

If it does seem that your great grandmother both lived and died in the Christchurch registration district area, you find yourself in a position shared by many genealogists: you know where an ancestor died but you will have to search speculatively to try to identify the place of burial. It was precisely to help out researchers in your predicament that the Federation of Family History Societies embarked upon its ongoing National Burial Index (NBI) project. A version of the NBI is online, containing 13 million entries, at Find My Past and can be found at http://www.findmypast.co.uk/parish-records-collection-search-start.action?redef=0&event=D. Currently, however, there are only limited records for Hampshire and, unfortunately, none of relevance to you.

This leaves you with only one option: to identify all the municipal and church burial grounds in the area active in 1903 and to eliminate them one by one, working out from the centre to more distant locations. As you are based in Australia and do not benefit from local knowledge, I suggest that your best step would be to contact the relevant family history society, in this instance Hampshire Genealogical Society for advice. Their contact page http://www.hgs-online.org.uk/contacts.htm includes email addresses for local organisers. They may also be able to recommend a local expert willing to undertake enquiries upon your behalf; such searches may be necessary at the County Record Office and could take in funeral notices in local newspapers for the two weeks after death, as well as burial registers.

Finally, as a word of caution, it is worth noting that if and when you successfully identify the place of burial, it is possible that you will find no surviving headstone in situ – one may not have been raised in the first place, or it may have become weathered and damaged over time. In this regard, those local authorities most mindful of health and safety regulations often lay down headstones which they deem to be dangerous.”

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