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Ask the expert – clues in the British Army Service Records

Our resident expert Stephen Rigden, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Betty Watts:

‘This is a long shot but thought I would try this long outstanding research on you.

My grandfather William Richard Berry was born in 1872 and according to 1901 and 1911 censuses, this was in Limehouse, Middlesex. The only relevant baptism I could find gives his father as Charles (spelt Berrey) whereas on his marriage certificate he is recorded as William. His son, my uncle, was Charles William. The mother was Jane Philpot (I have not found a marriage for these two which I hoped would perhaps add William to his name).

I have found William in the 1891 census at Dorchester Barracks, place of birth Middlesex. In the 1901 and 1911 censuses he gives Limehouse as the birth place.

I have looked for his service records several times at The National Archives in Kew and also online but unfortunately they are missing. I do have a prayer book with the following inscription:

Pte. W.R. Berry
2nd Dorset Regiment
Good Friday
South African Field Force

I have even tried the Dorchester Army office, although not lately. I did find a William Berry in the 1881 census in Stoke Common, Hants, with a birthplace of London, Middlesex. He was the grandson of Henry Philpot but there was also a Frederick Berry, aged 45, unmarried.

There’s another William in the 1881 census, in Gifford Street, Islington, aged nine, born in Middlesex. He’s the grandson of Thomas Berry. I have had many wrong birth certificates over the years so I’m still left with nothing positive. William married my grandmother Florence Annie Ridsdill in 1898.

I have been researching this branch since 1984 so you can guess how frustrated I feel but I’m ever hopeful that something will turn up.’

Stephen says:

‘Thanks for writing in with your question, Betty. I have done a little digging using a few online sources on findmypast.co.uk and have found some new leads for you to follow up.

Firstly, I have found army pension papers for William Richard Berry in the findmypast.co.uk collection of records of men pensioned from the British Army during the 19th century.

The record is composed of five pages. These give various details including a physical description (with tattoos) and a nice outline of his military career. Before he joined the Dorset Regiment on 22 January 1891, he had previously enlisted into the 3rd Battalion Hampshire Regiment, from which he purchased his discharge. I am reliably informed by a military historian colleague that, at that date, discharge could be purchased for £10 within the first three months.

At the time, £10 would presumably have been a tidy sum (especially as he was only 18 years and one month old when he joined the Dorsets, and is described as a labourer). Perhaps army life suited him in the long run, however, as he subsequently served 12 years with the Dorsets and then, in 1903, signed up for a further four years’ service in the Army Reserve, before discharge on 21 January 1907.

Most of his service was at home, but he did serve overseas in the Second Anglo-Boer War, from November 1899 to June 1900. For this, he was awarded the Queen’s South Africa Medal, the latter with two clasps – Tugela Heights (fought during February 1900) and the Relief of Ladysmith (1 March 1900). You can easily search the internet for these two actions to find out more.

This is all interesting information, but there are two other facts to extract from these so-called ‘Chelsea Pensioner’ service papers.

Firstly, upon enlistment into the Dorset Regiment, William’s place of birth is given as Bishopstoke, Hampshire, but then struck out and replaced with London, Middlesex (the correction is initialled by the recruiting officer). This could of course have been a simple clerical error (the form was completed on behalf of the soldier, not by him) but I do not think so – see below…

More significantly, on the fifth page, the column 12 for next of kin is completed with the details of an unmarried sister, Mary Jane Berry, of 11 Harbe[r]son Road, Balham in London (she is later struck out following the marriage of William in 1898, as from that point his wife was of course his next of kin). Note that this address falls under Streatham in census returns. In the 1891 census, at this address are Henry and Emily Phillpott and one Mary Merry (sic – presumably an error by the census enumerator) – the last named being the Phillpotts’ 24-year old niece, born in Bishopstoke, Hampshire. The head of household Henry Phillpott is also from Bishopstoke. I note that you refer to a Jane Philpot in your emailed question. To view this image, go to findmypast.co.uk’s census reference search and search under the following citation: RG12 piece 455 folio 60 page 13.

Now if you search the 1881 census for the siblings Mary and William Richard Berry, you come across the following entry in Winchester: RG11 piece 1234 folio 66 page 27. Here a widowed Henry Philpott is with his son William Philpott, his unmarried stepson Frederick Berry, his granddaughter Mary J Berry (born Bishopstoke) and his grandson William Berry (born London, Middlesex). This is certainly the right family.

Track back to 1871 and look at another Winchester district census return – reference RG10 piece 1213 folio 54 page 7 for Stoke Common in Bishopstoke. Here Henry and Ann Philpot are in residence with unmarried sons William, Henry and George Philpot, unmarried 19-year old ‘son-in-law’ (meaning step-son) Richard Berry and grandchildren Mary J and Walter W Berry (aged four months and 11 months respectively, both born in Bishopstoke). Walter W is another sibling of your William Richard, while Richard would be William Richard’s uncle – William Richard himself won’t be born for another two or three years.

For the 1861 census, the citation for this family is RG9 piece 694 folio 62 page 29. Here Henry and Ann Phillpott are with his mother Elizabeth Phillpott and their children William, Mary and Henry Phillpott, together with 13-year old ‘daughter-in-law’ (step-daughter) Jane Berry and 9-year-old ‘son-in-law’ (step-son) Richard Berry.

You will need to examine all these records very carefully to piece together what is quite a complicated family structure. It is clear that Henry Phil(l)pot(t) married Ann(e) Berry in 1859, and that both had children from previous relationships – Henry had sons William and Mary; Ann(e) had children Frederick, Jane and Richard; while together they had Henry Jnr and George.

It is possible that Ann(e)’s children were born illegitimately – I think she is the Ann Berry with 5-year-old Frederick in the 1841 census at census ref HO107 piece 404 book 10 page 5. It is also possible, although I haven’t been able to prove it, that Ann(e)’s daughter Jane Berry, the step-daughter of Henry Phil(l)pot(t), was a single mother with children Mary Jane, Walter W and William Richard. You might be able to start proving or disproving this by getting the birth certificate of Mary Jane Berry – what would appear to be her birth was registered in June quarter 1866 in Winchester registration district (volume 2C, page 103).

Good luck with your research!’

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Ask the expert – Chelsea Pensioner ancestor

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Roslyn Berthelsen in Queensland, Australia:

‘I have been trying to find out what campaigns my grandfather fought in during WWI and the Boer War etc. His name is George Jull and he was born on 24 April 1874 in Kent, England. He married my grandmother Lizzie Kemp and she was born on 15 September 1882 in Kent. They migrated with their family to Australia in about 1920. I know my cousin’s son has my grandfather’s war medals but he hasn’t been very co-operative in letting me know what campaign’s he fought in and now my cousin has died I don’t have his son’s address to contact him again.

George’s father’s name was Alfred Jull, born in 1846, and his mother’s name was Amelia Eve born 1850.’

Paul says:

‘I couldn’t find a medal index card for George Jull for WWI. Two men are listed: George E Jull and George Norman Jull, neither of whom are your man. Two possibilities here then: either he enlisted under an assumed name or he enlisted under his own name but did not serve overseas. The medal index cards only record men who received medals or a silver war badge and if he had no overseas service he wouldn’t have received a medal.

The good news is that his pre-WWI papers do survive in the Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records (WO97) on findmypast.co.uk. A potted history reads as follows:

• Attested with King’s Royal Rifle Corps for seven years with the colours and five years on the reserve at Canterbury on 10 February 1892 aged 18 years
• At the time of his attestation he was working as a labourer and was also serving (part time) with the Thames Medway Division Submarine Miners (Royal Engineers)
• He gave his place of birth as Boughton near Faversham
• He was 5 feet 4 ¼ inches tall with a fresh complexion, hazel eyes and dark brown hair. He had a mole on his left shoulder and a tattooed dot on his left forearm
• He had a somewhat chequered military career (which you can read all about on the four pages of his service record) but he spent time overseas in Gibraltar, Malta, South Africa and Mauritius and in fact spent over 11 years serving with the colours and just 10 months on the reserve. It was while he was on the reserve that he married Lizzie Kemp in 1903
• He served during the Boer War and was awarded the Queen’s South Africa Medal with clasps Belfast and Laing’s Nek and the King’s South Africa Medal with clasps 1901 and 1902
• He achieved a number of educational certificates and qualifications during his time in the British Army

The King’s Royal Rifle Corps was a well-respected infantry regiment and George served with the 3rd, 2nd and 1st Battalions. I hope this is helpful.’

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Ask the expert – WWI ancestor?

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, offers advice on how to solve your military family history mysteries.

From Alan Theobald:

‘I have been trying to find any records of my paternal grandfather’s army service for several years, without success, and would be grateful for any advice you can offer.

He was James Theobald, born in 1870, died in 1950/1 in Romford, Essex. He lived all his life within a few miles of Romford except for military service. He was unlikely to have been a commissioned officer. This is all I know about him:

• Found on the 1891 census as a civilian
• Not found on the 1901 census, which could suggest that he was overseas at the time
• Described on the 1911 census and on the 1909 birth certificate of one of his sons as an army pensioner. I know that he was partially paralysed as a result of wounds and/or sunstroke
• Not found in Chelsea Pensioners records, which could suggest that he was not a British Army pensioner. Who else would have paid him an army pension?
• Not found in any 2nd Boer War records. Not found by a researcher in WO97
• Reputed to have described the sun as the Bengal blanket
• Granted the lease of a smallholding in Crow Lane, Romford in around 1930, until his death, under a Royal British Legion scheme for disabled ex-servicemen. RBL say that they have no archive material

Hope you can help.’

Paul says:

‘Hello Alan.

Admittedly he’s a bit of a mystery and you’re really struggling without a regiment.

The survival rate of documents in WO97 for men discharged to pension between 1883 and 1913 is very good; in fact Michael and Christopher Watts, in their book My Ancestor was in the British Army (Society of Genealogists 2009) describe finding a document as ‘a near certainty’.

The fact that nothing appears to survive for your grandfather could suggest a) that he was discharged overseas (the survival rate for these men’s papers is low) or b) that he subsequently served during WWI. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that he could have joined up again in 1914, his papers being moved out of what is now WO97 and into WO363 where they were subsequently destroyed during bombing in WWII.

I’m tempted towards WWI because you mention the Royal British Legion, an organisation formed after WWI to look after WWI veterans and their families. As far as I’m aware they did not concern themselves with veterans of previous conflicts, although it would be worth verifying this with RBL.’

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Ask the Expert – court-martial mystery

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Helen Fraser:

‘I have a copy service record for my great grandfather Joseph Brady who served with the Royal Artillery from 23 November 1854 until 20 February 1877. His rank at outset was gunner and driver and he was promoted to bombardier. He is stated to be awaiting court martial 26-28 May 1860 and was then reduced to gunner. He was subsequently promoted again and became sergeant by October 1869. He had good conduct badges and a long service medal and gratuity.

Is it possible to find out why his name was listed ??? times in the Regimental Defaulters Book and also why he was court-martialled and reduced in rank during service?

The Army Index 1861 lists him as number 27 (WO10/2591) and service record says number 4932.’

Paul says:

‘I’ve had a look at Joseph’s service record in the Chelsea Pensioner British Army Service Records (WO97) on findmypast.co.uk and in many respects it’s typical of the time; a career soldier who had minor run-ins with authority during the time he was in the army. It’s important to remember too that what survives in WO97 is, for the most part, only a fraction of what would have been in his file once upon a time. Over the years, records have been weeded and weeded again and so what you see now just gives the bare bones of his army service. Had the original papers not been destroyed you would have seen exactly what it was that caused Joseph Brady to be court-martialled.

There’s an excellent book by Alan Ramsay called ‘The Victorian Army At Home’ (Croom Helm, 1977) and I’m going to draw from this in my reply to you. To be court-martialled wasn’t a particularly rare occurrence in Victoria’s Army. Alan Ramsay notes that 18,950 soldiers, or just over nine per cent of the total force, were court-martialled in 1865. This figure reduced consistently over the years but even as late as 1898, close to nine thousand men were court-martialled. It’s probably safe to say that when Joseph had his brush with army authority, he was probably one of 20,000 soldiers or more who came up before his superiors.

A man could be court-martialled for a variety of reasons and Alan Ramsay quotes the following offences:

• Mutiny
• Absent without leave
• Fraudulent enlistment
• Disobedience, insubordination, etc
• Quitting or sleeping on post
• Drunkenness (all kinds)
• Disgraceful conduct
• Making away with equipment
• Other

Of these ‘crimes’, drunkenness was the most common offence, certainly from 1865 until 1880 at least, after which time disobedience and insubordination becomes the main category. Remember too that some crimes that a soldier could be charged with seem trivial today and probably seemed trivial 160 years ago too for that matter. As Alan Ramsay notes, “seven days confinement to barracks for leaving a brush out of a kit display was not uncommon.”

As far as Joseph was concerned, his only punishment appears to have been reduced in rank and within four years he had been promoted to that same rank again and would go on to achieve the rank of sergeant, ultimately receiving the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal with gratuity. So as frustrating as it must be to not know the reason behind his court-martial or entries in the regimental defaulters’ book, he was discharged from the army in Secunderabad in 1876 with a character described as very good.’

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Army sweethearts exhibition at the National Army Museum

The National Army Museum is currently holding a special exhibition until 30 July 2011: Wives and Sweethearts.

The exhibition explores soldiers’ relationships from the 18th century to the present day. You’ll be able to see a fantastic selection of letters, photographs, jewellery and other tokens of love. Click here to find out more about the exhibition

Have you found any army sweethearts in your family tree? Finding your ancestors’ army marriage records couldn’t be easier on findmypast.co.uk. We’ve recently improved our search so now you can look for your ancestors’ marriage records for 1796-2005 in one go. Our search will even match up your ancestors’ marriage records for you, giving you one definite marriage match or a list of possible matches. Try it now!

We’ve found our very own army sweethearts in our Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records. Joseph Grandy’s military history sheet shows his wife, Catherine Louisa, as being with his battalion:

Click to enlarge

We can see from this record that Joseph and Catherine married on 16 September 1873 in Dublin. Joseph was posted to India on 21 October 1873, so we can infer that Catherine travelled to India with Joseph, a new wife unwilling to be parted from her husband.

Here is a photograph of Joseph and Catherine from a photographer’s studio in Dublin:

Click to enlarge. Photo courtesy of Paul Blake

We’d love to hear about any army sweethearts you’ve found while researching your past.

Ask the Expert – soldier in South Africa

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Auriel Abrahams in Johannesburg, South Africa:

‘I have an ancestor who served in the 72nd regiment of foot. He left the army, was a Chelsea Pensioner and settled in South Africa where he married and died. I have been able to establish that John McKenzie was born in Dingwall, Urguhart, Ross and Cromarty in 1787 via WO97/843/31.

His papers do not give his parents’ names so I am stuck and cannot see from baptism records who his parents were. I also cannot find the muster rolls in the British Archives. I assume the muster rolls will indicate his parents – or is this a will that the soldiers had to complete when they signed up which would indicate their next of kin? Any suggestions as to how I can go further back?’

Paul says:

‘This is probably a case of checking pay books and muster rolls in class WO12 at The National Archives. Use the information contained within the WO97 document to work out when John McKenzie enlisted and then consult the muster rolls and/or pay lists for this man. WO12 is organised by regiment and the date on which his name first appears should give more information about him.

Supplemental evidence about his physical description may appear in WO25, although this series tends to cover records from the first half of the 19th Century only. It was not obligatory for a soldier to make a will when he signed up.’

If you’d like to send your question to our experts, please register or opt to receive newsletters in My Account. Unfortunately our experts only have time to answer a few queries each month. If yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!

Ask the Expert – which William?

Our resident military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Gail Quirt in Toronto, Canada:

‘I have hit the proverbial brick wall in finding out about my great-great-grandfather, William Booth. I have a registration certificate from the General Register Office for the birth of his son, Joseph Booth, in Benares, East Indies on 27 January, 1864. I know he was in the British Army in India (since his son was born there) and the family stories have him fighting in the Crimea War.

William must have died around the time Joseph was born, as Joseph ‘is recorded as a child of the marriage of 1403 Lance Corporal Edward Lee and Rosannah Booth, Widow’, but I am unable to find the date and place of his death.

Using findmypast.co.uk’s military records, there are a few William Booths who seem to have been in the Crimea and India at the right times. I have no information on when or where William Booth was born and I’m not sure which of the William Booths is my ancestor. Would you be able to find out which is the right William Booth, and when and where he was born and died?’

Paul says:

‘The excellent www.dnw.co.uk website gives three possibilities for a William Booth who fought during the Indian Mutiny and appears on the Indian Mutiny Medal Roll. These three men, all named William Booth, served with the 34th Foot, the 2nd Dragoon Guards and the 8th Hussars.

Finding a man on the Crimean war medal roll is far more difficult purely because the condition of much of the roll is best described as ‘shocking’ and, at worst, ‘unreadable’ or ‘missing’. There is, however, a William Booth with the 8th Hussars (number 1350) who is possibly the same man who later served during the Mutiny.

I thought that he might be a possible candidate until I checked our Chelsea Pensioners records and found that he was discharged from the army (and, therefore, still very much alive) in 1866. Remember too that the Chelsea Pensioners’ data is only for men who were discharged to pensions. If a man was discharged without a pension, or if he died, he won’t be in the Chelsea Pensioners WO97 records.

Later in the year we’ll be releasing records from the WO119 series which is Kilmainham Pensioners’ discharge documents. These are similar to WO97 but only cover the period up until 1821 and so we can rule that out. You may, however, find a death for William Booth in the Indian collection which we’re currently working on with the British Library. Read more about this fantastic project.’

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Ask the Expert – missing enlistment papers

Our military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Don McMahon:

‘I am trying to find birth details of my great grandfather born in Ireland, who served in British Army. Details known: Michael McMahon, born approximately 1842. He enlisted in Depot 1st Battalion 9th Regiment of Foot (East Norfolk) on 13 June 1860, in Limerick, Ireland.

I am not able to find details of his enlistment papers. I need to find birth date, parents and place of birth. I hope you can help, many thanks in anticipation.’

Paul says:

‘The 1861 census gives a Michael McMahon aged 20, born at Cork, Ireland. On 7 April 1861 this Michael McMahon was a private soldier, one of 989 soldiers stationed at the Permanent Infantry & North Gate Barracks occupied by the 4th Depot Battalion in Canterbury, Kent. There is nothing on this census return, however, to tie in this man with the 9th Regt of Foot. Of course, it’s worth noting that the Chelsea Pensioners record set is literally just that: men discharged to pension. If Pte McMahon did not receive a pension – for whatever reason – he won’t be in that particular archive.’

If you’d like to send your question to our experts, please register or opt to receive newsletters in My Account. Unfortunately our experts only have time to answer a few queries each month. If yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!

Ask the Expert – military mystery

Our military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Jenny Fitzgerald in London:

‘I really hope you can help me with my query as this has been a mystery for 20 years. I will fill you in with the background, as this is necessary for the questions.

My great grandfather John Ernest Parkinson was born on 8 September 1856 in Ostend, Belgium, to John Parkinson. I have a copy of his birth certificate, written in old Flemish, that I’ve had translated into English. One of the witnesses on the birth certificate was a captain Veynoe domiciled in Dublin, in English Service; the other was a local Inn keeper. Annoyingly, it does not state the occupation of the father.

I searched for any military records of John Parkinson born Pentonville, London in 1832, in the new records on findmypast.co.uk, and found him serving in the Army Hospital Corps from December 1858 until discharged with TB in 1869, during which time he spent eight years in India – a fabulous find. The record showed he died on 1 May 1871 and I now have the death certificate which confirms it is the right person. The census taken just before his death shows him at home with his family.

So, I have a couple of questions: why would John be in Belgium with a heavily pregnant wife in 1856? I suspect he may have been in the army because of the witness, but if he was in the army, why in Belgium?

Also, why did he join the AHC if he had been in another division two years prior? Would he have been conscripted, or joined voluntarily? Thanks for your assistance.’

Paul says:

‘I’ll answer the last question first. He would not have been conscripted but would have joined voluntarily, and it was not uncommon for soldiers to transfer from one regiment to another. You see that a lot, particularly with cavalry regiments as a matter of fact.

I’m not sure why he’d be in Belgium in 1856 but his military papers in WO97 may state whether he had previous army service. If he did not, then he was presumably in Belgium as a civilian.’

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Ask the Expert – lost uncle

Our military expert Paul Nixon, pictured below, answers your queries.

From Gillian Edgell in Norfolk:

‘Ref: Edwin John Mandeville, born 13 March 1857 at 101 Kent Street (now Tabard Street) Southwark. Parents Hannah and Alfred Mandeville.

I’m wondering if you can help me find or give advice on where I can find any further information on whereabouts of my great great uncle, Edwin John Mandeville, after he left the army in 1895.

On the 1881 census he is listed under the name of Edwin J Manderville , visitor, and his occupation was carpenter. His address was 53 Royal Navy, Salmons Lane, Limehouse. He was staying with his sister, my great grandmother Amelia, and family. I have been searching for years now, trying to find out what happened to him next, but I couldn’t find any further record of him.

You can imagine how thrilled I was when I recently searched for his name in the Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913 and I found a match straight away:

Edwin John Mandeville, age of attestation: 24 years 7 months (I don’t know why he lied about his age, unless you needed to be under 25 to join?)

The attestation date was 3 March 1883, attestation corps: South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’ Volunteers), attestation soldier number: 873.

I have looked at the original records – there are nine images. He was discharged after 12 years of service; he was found unfit for further service and his next of kin was given as his older sister Hannah Turner, 25 Arthur Street, Oxford Street, London.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find any further record of him again. I have looked everywhere and found nothing.

I would be very grateful for any input you can give me. Is there, for example, any way of finding out the address where his pension was sent to or when it was stopped paying out? Is there any reason why he would have joint a Northern Regiment, when he lived in London? Any help would be appreciated just so I can finally finish my family tree.’

Paul says:

‘Unfortunately there are no details of the pension award that survive in his papers, but it would have been sent to whatever address he gave to the Pension Board. He was probably awarded a conditional pension of £X in respect of a degree of disablement which was either attributable to, or aggravated by, army service.

This degree of disablement would have been expressed as a percentage, e.g., 20% degree of disablement etc. In all probability, after his first pension award, he would have been called before various subsequent medical boards which would either have continued to make conditional awards or ultimately stopped them.

Interestingly, before he signed up as a career soldier with the South Lancs, he had served with the East Surrey militia and, therefore, it would be worth checking our militia records (WO96) when these go online in 2011.

As for why he joined the South Lancs Regt, he may have been approached by a recruiting sergeant for that regiment and decided to join. Despite the fact that Cardwell’s reforms of 1881 attempted to align the British line infantry along territorial or regional lines, regiments recruited not only in their own counties but also much further afield.

I have a minor study of this for the Border regiment on my Army Service Numbers blog and there’s also related information here.’

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